Introduce ROCK 5B - ARM Desktop level SBC

#64

QuickCharge 4.0 AKA USB PD 3.0

QC4.0 and PD 3.0 are different protocol, but many PS chips support both.

USB-C Power Delivery 3.0 (PD3.0) introduces a new Programmable Power Supply (PPS) mode, which allows a device to negotiate any supply of 3.3-21 V in 20 mV steps, and up to 5 A of current in 50 mA steps.

I think PPS is the flexible power rules you refer. It depends on the power adapter(the chip PD version and the PS output capability design, as far as I know, most PS doesn’t support PPS.

I believe the reason of PPS is the power loss rate, convert 9V to 5V is more efficient than convert 20V to 5V, so the more precise the PS output just enough power for the device(dynamic system power request from the PS), the less power wasted.

https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/stable/linux.git/tree/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-bus-typec?h=v5.10.91

The USB C controller we use, fusb302 or alternative is PD 2.0 phy only. It can not support PPS.

For 65W, currently we are negotiating with the PS output 20V for sure.

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#65

So, how about that heatsink and fan? Cases?

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#66

Will it have an OTP Memory to punch in a public key for boot verification and a facility to verify the first bootloader? (Lockdown in general but for the actual owner.)

Does that SOC include any extra computers Intel ME style?
Does it have an undocumented boot by GPU mess like the rapsberries?

Does it have a hardware RNG? Is that one worth even thinking about?
Does it have a RTC?

#67

Will it have an OTP Memory to punch in a public key for boot verification and a facility to verify the first bootloader? (Lockdown in general but for the actual owner.)

Yes, it has OTP.

Does that SOC include any extra computers Intel ME style?

There are three cortex-m0 mcu inside, not sure if all of them are for the big core control, i think the firmware will be open source.

Does it have an undocumented boot by GPU mess like the rapsberries?

Absolutely no.

Does it have a hardware RNG? Is that one worth even thinking about?

Yes, not sure about the driver status yet.

Does it have a RTC?

Yes, RTC battery connector is available on 5B.

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#68

I didn’t find any documentation regarding this. Are you sure?

I have seen some secure flag in the maskrom spi flashing tools code but nothing explains what that actually does. 1 bit of configuration flag isnt exactly a promising hint of finding signed boot facilities.
(For the 4)

So can you answer this question a bit more explicitly?

#69

Wondering if any of the chips on the back is an SPI flash for a bootloader. And also, have you thought about implementing Embedded Base Boot Requirements (EBBR), which would be a killer feature for adoption.

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#70

I don’t see any mention of OTG support, is it not available on this board? Or an omission?

#71

What is the benefit of using Radxa provided Debian Buster over regular Debian Buster?

#75
#76

Radxa’s Buster is some Debian userland combined with BLOBs (RAM initialisation, ‘firmware’ for at least one of the 3 included MCUs), bootloader and kernel from Rockchips’s BSP (board support package). It will boot.

“Debian Buster” is what the Debian project provides relying on mainline u-boot and mainline kernel and trying to be BLOB free.

RK3588 is a new SoC. There’s zero support for it in mainline u-boot and mainline Linux kernel so guess what you will get with “Debian Buster” --> the board will not even boot.

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#78

Video Output
Dual HDMI 2.1 / eDP up to 8Kp60 or 4Kp120
Dual DisplayPort up to 4Kp60
Dual MIPI DSI output
Up to four independent displays

Supossedly… But read the manual

Presume if hardware decoding ever gets a working driver then

1.2.4 Video CODEC
 Video Decoder
 Real-time video decoder of MPEG-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, H.263, H.264, H.265, VC-1,
VP9, VP8, MVC, AV1
 MMU Embedded
 Multi-channel decoder in parallel for less resolution
 H.264 AVC/MVC Main10 L6.0 : 8K@30fps (7680x4320)②
 VP9 Profile0/2 L6.1 : 8K@60fps (7680x4320)
 H.265 HEVC/MVC Main10 L6.1 : 8K@60fps (7680x4320)
 AVS2 Profile0/2 L10.2.6 : 8K@60fps (7680x4320)
 AV1 Main Profile 8/10bit L5.3 : 4K@60fps (3840x2160)
 MPEG-2 up to MP : 1080p@60fps (1920x1088)
 MPEG-1 up to MP : 1080p@60fps (1920x1088)
 VC-1 up to AP level 3 : 1080p@60fps (1920x1088)
 VP8 version2 : 1080p@60fps (1920x1088)
 Video Encoder
 Real-time H.265/H.264 video encoding
 Support up to 8K@30fps
 Multi-channel encoder in parallel for less resolution
1.2.5 JPEG CODEC
 JPEG Encoder
 Baseline (DCT sequential)
 Encoder size is from 96x96 to 8192x8192(67Mpixels)
 Up to 90 million pixels per second
 JPEG Decoder
 Decoder size is from 48x48 to 65536x65536
 Support YUV400/YUV411/YUV420/YUV422/YUV440/YUV444
 Support up to 1080P@280fps, and 560 million pixels per second
 Support MJPEG

1.2.11 Video Output Processor
 Video ports
 Video Port0, max output resolution: 7680x4320@60Hz
 Video Port1, max output resolution: 4096x2304@60Hz
 Video Port2, max output resolution: 4096x2304@60Hz
 Video Port3, max output resolution: 1920x1080@60Hz
 Cluster 0/1/2/3
 Max input and output resolution 4096x2304
 Support AFBCD
 Support RGB/YUV/YUYV format
 Support scale up/down ratio 4~1/4
 Support rotation
 ESMART 0/1/2/3
 Max input and output resolution 4096x2304
 Support RGB/YUV/YUYV format
 Support scale up/down ratio 8~1/8
 Support 4 region
 Overlay
 Support up to 8 layers overlay: 4 cluster/4 esmart
 Support RGB/YUV domain overlay
 Post process
 HDR
 HDR10/HDR HLG
 HDR2SDR/SDR2HDR
 3D-LUT/P2I/CSC/BCSH/DITHER/CABC/GAMMA/COLORBAR
 Write back
 Format: ARGB8888/RGB888/RGB565/YUV420
 Max resolution: 1920x1080

#79

Good luck. If you aren’t OK with running Windows headless (the IoT version) then you need a DirectX capable GPU for the Windows GUI to be usable.

Up until now the only integrated GPUs in the ARM world capable of DirectX are some older PowerVR, NVIDIA Tegra and the Adrenos in Qualcomm’s Snapdragon SoCs (understandable when looking at their origin and past failed Microsoft adventures like Windows RT). Rockchip uses Mali for 2D/3D acceleration and its own proprietary video acceleration stuff.

The M.2 slot at the bottom could fit an adapter or something like this to go with an external PCIe attached GPU. But no idea about Rockchip’s current PCIe implementation. In the past (RK3399) internal limitations led to GPU cards not being able to use and once you use an external GPU it’s over with energy efficiency anyway.

BTW: if I would be a Radxa product manager I would start to publicly elaborate a bit more on what end users can expect in 2022 software-wise. But fortunately it’s neither my product nor my soon to be very angry customers :slight_smile:

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#80

@tkaiser, Pal, radxa is not software developery, they are hardware developers. So, yeah, they can’t say will Armbian guys accept free sample to create Armbian for it or no, same goes for Panfrost guys. Is someone expects Windows software level on start of this hardware - they can’t read articles thats appears right now regarding this sbc. And if person can’t read - there is no helping them.

#81

I am still trying to get my head round Rockchips BSP to what it will mean as really its an old Android fork of Linux 2.4 with a shed loads of commits and is very long cul-de-sac.

I presume it gets a board working with GPU but your stuck with specific applications for video to use those blobs like Raspbian used to be (If those apps exist).
Horrid solution but gets something working with the catch-22 of upstreaming the board to mainline Linux.

The RK3399 had a lot of impetus from Google using it as their OP1 chip but if memory serves me upstreaming and kernel fixes for mainline took over 2 years.
I am sort of expececting this and this is common with early adopters such as Radxa where much will be done by a surronding community.
I know I will hate the Rockchip BSP so much I will not consider The Rock 5 user ready until it is 100% mainline linux implemented.

#82

@anon6089932, for the love of god, please read how it works and how many hours it took RasPi community to create UEFI for Win10 on RasPi (and it’s still not working fully)

#83

I think @tkaiser is right as a lot of customers don’t really understand the hardware process and that might be purchasing something that is still an if, if it goes mainline in 2 years+ of work as a guestimate that might even be optimistic.

Mainline might even never happen as it depends on popularity and employment and the development that brings and that would leave you with Rockchip BSP which is Linux but not as we know it Jim!

I am going to purchase one as I just happen to be a bit of a Arm SBC geek and its an interest of mine, but if anyone wants to be a ‘user’ of normal linux expectations then its a hell no, for quite some time.

Radxa will do what they do and make the hardware and hope that impetus goes mainline and they sell their production runs.
I don’t expect Radxa to label a don’t buy this sticker on the product but the community should really try to make it clear this is a pure hardware product with zero software guarantee.

Also its not just the mainline kernel its MESA but Collarbora are already making headway with Valhall but would prob love to get board samples with a G610 variant of a Valhall GPU.

Alyssa Rosenzweig latest tweet

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#84

No reason to tell me since I’m fully aware of this. It’s about marketing, communication, consumers and their expectations.

Are you kidding? Do you know what Armbian really is and where RK mainlining work happens? There’s very little overlap between the linux-rockchip community and people who consider themselves being part of the Armbian crowd.

BTW: I’m ‘a little bit’ aware of what Armbian is. Simply compare https://github.com/armbian/build/graphs/contributors with count of my commits to Armbian’s build system:

 git log | grep 'Author' | egrep 'ThomasKaiser|Thomas Kaiser' | wc -l
 540
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#85

Really excited to read this announcement. Truth be told, i signed up to this forum after reading the announcement.

Hope in the future Radxa would have an authorized distributor in my country, just like the Raspberry Pi Trading.

#86

Dude, most of who buy this software\hardware developers or DIY guys. If we all start wait when all software features will be works as all want it tooks forever. If u care about software support there is no any variant except raspberry pi ONLY because they have biggest community which do all this.

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#87

All you need to do is look above for questions on if it will run windows or 4k 120hz video its pretty obvious many are not software/hardware developers and have little idea how rough around the edges this could be at first.

Its not about support or all software features to work, its that Rockchip BSP image that is likely to be extremely stinky on this new and extremely complex SoC.
Its about telling those in the community early adoption probably is not a good idea if your knowledge level is asking questions such as ‘Will it run windows’.

I am getting one because I don’t need to be told what Raspberry do or what community they have thanks lol.
I am warning others because them purchasing makes no difference as the actual contributors are few, far and wide. I have a hunch it could be at least 2 years minium before the majority of it is mainline and likely reluctance of contributing to the Rockchip BSP as its a huge cul-de-sac originating in kernel version 2.4.

In this forum the percentage of software/hardware developers who can contribute to kernel/driver fixes is tiny and the DiY guys are likely better doing home improvements as the majority will be doing no DiY with mentioned kernel/driver fixes.

There are a huge number that don’t realise it will be a work in progress and they attach a negative reputation to Radxa or SBC boards in general due to there lack of knowledge and that is no benefit at all.

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