Rock Pi 4 vs Raspberry Pi 4

#21

The arguments are already circulating.
Again the vast majority at least here in Brazil does not buy to use Android, on the cell phone they already supply suans nescessidades with Android, the CBSs are compared to use with media center or as a game emulator to stay connected on the TV of the room, I have friends who compare for this reason, are not children but also do not want to waste hours reading manuals of how to solve problems in the OS or afraid to buy a CBS with incopatibilities.

About the M2 for people is a problem for 3 reasons.
1 there is no case for ROCK PI 4 with M2 SSD support at this time.
2 many of the SSDs do not yet have compatibility with the ROCK PI 4 and the few that works are not ready the OS that can be installed directly on it.
3 Ask a novice user what an SSD-M2 is most if they want to know what it is for.
I yours that in the future this will be solved, but it is in the future, we are talking about the actuality.

As I said the $ 75 cost of a board to a Brazilian or South American, to an African, or to an Asian Pacific Ocean are not keen on paying dearly for a board that has specific functionality and would have to study hard to be able to solve usability issues.

I ask you how many people want a board just because of M2?
Get out on the streets asking this, people want facilities, they do not want to take risks.

#22

You are missing the point that an M.2 is a very high speed bus that is totally lacking from a Pi.
Its not just storage its what you could do from clusters to even NPUs.
You are missing the point that actually the Pi4 has a PCIe bus but is missing what could of likely been a very cheap addition of a connector and it would of made very little increase for the likes of Raspberry.

The Pi4 is purely a blocking product aimed at the timing of 5.2 and opensource Mali drivers, its a panic product that already costs from $35 - $75.
They have done some crazy things like swapping around the USB and ethernet, put 2 micro HDMI ports onboard and killed the original form factor without any real major benefit.
They have added a USB-C but retained the 5v 3amp Pi3 regulator that as a system will struggle to power multiple attached devices whilst under hard load.

I am not saying the RockPi4 is better and Brazilians should be buying one, but it is better and also sells from $39 to $75 and does have M.2 and generally keeps the form factor but at least when employing USB-C power they make it standard PD.

This comes from a supplier with tiny economies of scale compared to the raspberry pi4 and that is why the raspberry pi4 is an absolute stinker.
Rather than create the new form factor of new standards at Raspberry prices they have released a pure reactionary blocking product and some of us where hoping it might be visionary and as beneficial as the original.

The economies of scale Raspberry can garner, make that product extremely poor and currently from what I am reading much doesn’t work from 4k to many libs currently incompatible, its such a shame as it should of been far more and we are not talking about cost.
They have scrapped the Pi form factor and the new one is extremely poor and they are by a long distance the market leaders and this blocking product has made the market weaker for all.

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#24

You’re trying to compare the price of a 4TB spinning magnet with flash memory? Sorry, does not compute.

And he doesn’t mean that the pi is a blocking product, he means that the pi FOUR is a blocking product. Its his opinion, and makes sense in the context of how haphazard it appears to be for the reasons previously stated; that connectors on the board have been moved around or otherwise changed, and other aspects of it just seem rushed.

Its not really a standardized footprint anyway, since they just fell into that shape.

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#25

I just purchased a 2gb one and converted £ to $

• 1x Raspberry Pi 4 Heatsink for £2.00 each
• 1x Raspberry Pi 4 - 2GB RAM for £36.67 each
• Subtotal : £38.67 GBP
• VAT : £7.73 GBP
• Shipping : £3.25 GBP
• Total : £49.65 GBP

Knock off the £2:00 (heatsink) and to dollar that is $60 and the 4gb would be $72.60 in todays excahnge rate.
That is the cheapest I can get them in the UK.

There is nothing ‘redesigned’ about that form factor they have taken what they had and made changes for the new cpu and just bodged it together.
There is no design or thought gone into the pi4 absolutely none.
There is no hate just some clear logic that its introduction has obviously been done with haste.
How many times have we been told ‘not until 2020’, its a reactionary product and purely to block inroads made by other vendors.
There is no hate behind that just the simple logic that with Raspberries resources they could of evolved the whole market and created a new form factor that would of set a new target for the competition.
No one will be trying to clone the pi4 and its sadness not hate that its looking like Raspberry are no longer the market leader they once where.

Yeah they will sell loads because of current presence, but the lasting impression of the pi4 in my opinion is going to be far less than any product they have made previously.

Also you are missing the point and how many times do you have to say M.2 is not just for storage the M.2 on the Rockpi4 is 4x lanes of PCIe 2.1 and from 6 port sata raid, ethernet ports, pcie clusters, NPUs its opens up a whole new realm of possibility that unfortunately will stay relatively static without raspberry support.

The reason why I am negative is how little would be needed to achieve what would of been a massive leap forwards but has transpired into merely an incremental processor upgrade whilst kiiling form factor compatibility.

We will have to see how things go as its only my opinion, but I am betting when the shininess has subsided there may be some alternative views and questions to what they have produced.

Its a decent product and a decent price, but nothing special and raspberry had the resources and guaranteed sales to make something far better.
Its made huge number of alternatives more viable and not less.

1 Like
#26

form factor is not broken in my view, it’s redesigned, but you can still use the same hats.

Well, the form factor change is minor but big enough to break some accessories, e.g. the Zebra case for the 3 even fit Rock Pi 4 but not Raspberry Pi 4

2 Likes
#27

The other odd thing as really with the Pi4 you do need a heatsink the one supplied goes right over the WiFi/Bt module and pushes extremely close to the GPIO.
Haven’t tested effect on signal range or tried a 40 pin yet but will have to see.
For me the only thing that remains is the 40pin and why they didn’t move the Mipi as they are on ribbons anyway, is also a confusion as they moved or changed everything else.
If they had a 40x40mm heatsink could be fitted with a perfectly fitting 40mm fan, but now wondering if I should glue one on and just have a bit of an overhang as the 30x40mm heatsink is pushed right against both mipi connectors.

But that is enough Pi4 bashing and do honestly feel they missed a huge opportunity by just missing a few small extras and thought, which renders that opportunity much less, but hey.
So close but ultimately so far.

Its too late now as its done and time to dream of the RBPi5 or RockPi5, which I am sure a manufacturer at one point may say hold on we can make a cheaper more flexible modular product by more implementation of PCIe and cut out much dedicated hardware and reduce connectors of the base.
The RockPi4 is extremely minimalist but that single PCIe can add 4x Sata or USB3.0 and a plethora of devices, its the defacto high speed bus of the computer world.
2 maybe 3 of those 40pin picie ribbon connectors and an extremely modular base that is no-longer restricted to a singular camera or display mipi as extension boards with multiples can be added if needed and for many its not something they will never use.
The bank of 4 usb & ethernet is likely to stay and eventually creep up to 2x3.0, 2xtypec and maybe 10Gbeth.
Less is more, so they say, but definitely so when modular and I think its destined to go that way and maybe not Raspberry by the look of things, who will set an interchangeable form factor of the next gen SBC.

#29

That is the price they are selling for. No early adopter in it.

#31

I can quote what the cost to me is, as that is what is costs me.
The prices I quoted believe it or not are the prices they cost me.

That is correct for me but unlike some I don’t speak for the rest of the world.
But in a global economy many are not constricted to local purchase.

#33

The shipping was Shipping : £3.25 GBP it doesn’t make a big difference to the overall price of the Pi.
There is far less difference in price than you are making out.
If the Pi is so good and cheap then maybe you are in the wrong forum?

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#35

No argument has gone out, like no one is pushing you and yes it would seem some are Raspberry Fan boys and that is what I am saying they are not that great and not that cheap whilst having huge economies of scale, for what they offer.

#37

That is OK its no bother I don’t mind and I am quite patient.
Have a good day.

1 Like
#38

I think the difference between Rock Pi 4 and Raspberry Pi 4 are big enough, one may fit a specific application better vice versa. Rock Pi 4 apparently run faster and has more features, but again Raspberry Pi 4 will have better community support. I own 2 Rock Pi 4s, and ordered a Raspberry Pi 4, intend to use for the applications only available to Raspberry (trust me there are some, too much work to port everything over). In my opinion the direct competitor of Rock Pi 4 probably is SBC like Khadas VIM3 rather than Raspberry Pi 4 in the niche market for the power users.

#39

Funny that you mention modular.
Have you seen the 96boards “SoM edition”?

Carrier board;

SoM (rk3399pro);

Note that this is just the first carrier board and SoM. There should more manufacturers of carrier boards and SoM’s at some point as the platform takes off.

Also note that the carrier board spec includes a connector for 96boards “Consumer edition” mezzanine boards, which are stackable expansion boards.

Yeah, price is “TBD” and likely to be somewhat higher than the sub-$100 that the rp4/rock960 fill, but you pay a price for such things.

#40

Yeah its what I don’t get about the SoM / Carrier boards, as often you get a single SoM and a Single carrier board with every connector and device available and they are far from cost effective.
Its OK if you are going design your own specific carriers and reuse the same same, but tend to be specific to a singular SoM offering.

If you where going to take a blank canvas and make a truly modular way then its not a singular carrier but a board with pcie very much like a PC.
I really don’t understand now that the SBC has evolved to a certain level that apart from HDMI and some 40pin PCIe ribbon connectors that is it.

Even the now obligatory 4xUSB+Eth cluster doesn’t have to exist as many are on PCIe but that is likely to remain.
The rest apart from HDMI across the whole population probably have a large proportion of non use.

We need less dedicated hardware so we can grab the SBC CPU/Combo and attach the boards we require for a specific solution.
Even 2x PCIe x4 lanes gives massive choice of implementation 3x is nirvana and the first Arm CPU Manufacturer and board provider to harness this will open a single board solution to a much wider audience.

I have seen the 960 stuff and I just don’t get it, unless you are goinf to design and produce your own carrier.
That is not really necessary in a modular system unless you are looking to reduce costs through volume sales and even then the economies of sale of existing pcie units may even be the cheaper option.

#41

You clearly don’t see the big picture.

96boards is a set of board configuration and connector SPECIFICATIONS. They are NOT a manufacturer.

What that means, is that if another vendor, lets say Arrow (typically Qualcomm SoC), or Hisilicon (uses their own SoC) were to build a 96boards “SoM edition” SoM, then it will be fully compatible with the current carrier board. Or if another vendor were to produce their own carrier board, it would be compatible with all existing and future SoM’s, as well as certain I/O requirements.

To make that perfectly clear, it IS EXACTLY what you are complaining that it isn’t.

In much the same way, the 96boards “CE” specification (like the rock960) defines the physical shape, connector, and signal specifications. So if I design a mezzanine board for 96boards CE, it will work on ALL 96boards CE SBCs.

#42

Look at what the specifications currently offer I have looked before and its a total bloat of connectors and the carrier boards are hugely expensive.

I am not sure who sets the specifications but in terms of what I am saying in modular they don’t come close.
Its the wrong way round to fit a SoM into a common carrier for the purposes I see we should be fitting common modules to the board we choose.

Which is a simple arrary of 40pin pcie ribbon connectors which is just a micro version of what we see with PC motherboards.
That has been a winning combination for decades and why anyone thinks the 96boards are an advantage over that is an honest confusion to me.

#43

Did you even look at it?

First of all, they haven’t even set the price of the carrier board yet, so your assumption that they are “hugely expensive” is premature.

Second, your statement “wrong way round to fit…” is invalid. Its purpose IS to fit COMMON MODULES TO THE BOARDS WE CHOOSE. That is why it is a defined specification and not just a random set of connectors.

Third… “simple array of 40 pin pcie ribbon connectors”… huh? Who in their right mind wants to put something together with a rat’s nest of flimsy wires? Unless you enjoy continually checking your wires that are probably mostly broken.

#44

The mezzanines are not common that is the whole problem, the idea is that they are common but they are not and its that simple.

The m.2 card I got is common not as common as I would like but I have a choice instantly as PCIe and M.2 are specifications by bodies and manufactures of much bigger scale.
That is the problem with 96boards as noone adopts the standards even if more are starting to get involved.

If this is all you can reply with then prob best not to continue…

Third… “simple array of 40 pin pcie ribbon connectors”… huh? Who in their right mind wants to put something together with a rat’s nest of flimsy wires? Unless you enjoy continually checking your wires that are probably mostly broken.

If you look inside any consumer IT item from laptops, tablets, phones to homehubs you will find they are interconnected by a rats nest of flimsy wires.
That rats nest you refer to is lowcost high qty interconnects of modern IT goods, but hey ho.

#45

Mezzanine boards ARE ABSOLUTELY standard. Every CE mezzanine board works with EVERY 96boards SBC.

But we aren’t talking about CE.
We are talking about SoM.
Which has a standard interface between the carrier board and the SoM, a couple of PCI-e slots on top, an M2 socket on the bottom, a STANDARD Mezzanine interface, an array of display/lan/usb connectors, and pi-shaped display and camera ribbon connectors.

And trying to justify crappy ribbon cables by siting crappy laptops isn’t going to convince anyone. Yeah, most laptops do have a couple of crappy ribbon cables, BUT you are misrepresenting these in multiple ways;

  1. Most modular components in laptops are NOT connected by ribbon cables – usually only the keyboard and touchpad.
  2. Laptops are enclosed in a tight package to keep everything from flopping around.

All the major components are connected directly to the mainboard with sockets.
CPU: socket.
RAM: socket.
HDD-SSD: plug or socket.
Wifi: socket.

When was the last time you tore into a laptop?

Same with phones and tablets. Usually the only part on a ribbon cable is the display. The rest is socketed.

#46

When they have the space to fit the module onboard the use a socket if there is no space they build a board stack that is connected usually by ribbons.
The mezzanine boards are standard but they are not common and have no economies of scale.

M.2 and pcie do and that is where your argument falls flat.
The intention with 96boards is to make them standard but without economies of sale they will never be common so pretty pointless to use.

As the RockiPi4 is with just a single pcie m.2 sata on a extender board via ‘crappy rats nest cable’ already provides more available functionality and much less cost then any of your 96 boards.
It would be nice to get another as having that 4 port sata card is brilliant would be great to have another ethernet for the NAS I am building but the 1gb is prob more than enough.

Do your 96boards have a 4 port sata card that, could equally be a 10$ 4 port usb card or $20 2 port sata.
It doesn’t matter at all about sockets as these are generally for a purpose on initial build and never touched again as they are purely interconnects that have boards with ports on them.

I have a rockpi4 with 4 port pcie/sata and your 96boards don’t so which do you think is best?