Announcing the ROCK 5C: Power, Performance, and Versatility for Just $30

#61

you have? where?

#62

will it even be able to run standard stuff like QT and a desktop without a GPU ?

#63

Not everyone needs a GPU, which is kinda the point: for e.g. Home Assistant setup, or any other headless server (even for Frigate with NPU-based processing) the Lite board would be more than enough.
But, if you need desktop environment, yes, it can render that in software, should be good enough if desktop usage is not you primary use case.

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#64

no worries just wanted to be sure, it’s sad to see a extremely good decoder but not the ability to use an overlay like kody, but yeah, that happens when you bin a soc down

#65

Well, the non-Lite 5C is only some $12 more expensive, if you need that GPU power. :slight_smile:

#66

I already have a few rock5’s
5A,5B,CM5 :wink: Was just interested in that for pure curiosity.

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#67

Indeed, as I already have Rock 5A, 5B, 3A and 4B+, this new offer, especially the 5C Lite in 4GB flavor, sounds like a Rock 4 killer for server only purposes with direct WiFi support, so I think Radxa can now restrict its commercial offer and abandon the aging RK33xx line in middle range, except of course for people/companies searching for spare parts :wink:

Also, RK3588S2 in Rock 5C seems a better option than RK3588S in Rock 5A (what SoC difference except onboard WifFi?) since the cooling solution seems a bit better, so I am wandering if Rock 5A has still interest.

My feeling is that there is still a place for a 2xA76 or better with similar PCIe bandwidth as the RK3588. This missing offer would be great for pure NAS purposes.

Final words: for sure the current Radxa offer is too large with clear overlaps, so time has come to simplify the product line!

#68

The difference in the S2 SoC is only in extra MIPI CSI lanes (onboard WiFi is a board feature, not SoC feature), which doesn’t make much difference for 5C, as those aren’t populated anyway. Also (I’m only speculating here) it’s probably that S2 allows being downgraded to rk3582 if it doesn’t pass all tests.
5A has two HDMI outputs compared to one in 5C, as well as a standard E-Key PCIe interface, so you can potentially upgrade it to WiFi 7 easily. It’s also compatible with Pi4 cases and Rock 4C+ cases (I’m using this one).
I do agree that 5C looks a bit more interesting though, with Pi5 accessories compatibility as a nice bonus.

#69

For the E20C, why not using RK3582? SoC GbE + RTL8125B + m.2 B-key (PCIe x1 / SATA + USB, with SIM), or SoC GbE + 2x RTL8125B + m.2 B-key (USB only with SIM), and perhaps optional SDIO WiFi 6 like the 5B+? I think no GPU (but has HDMI) is fine for networking applications :laughing:

And what’s the size of E20C?

Too bad that all these cheaper SoC has too few PCIe lanes, and adding a ASM1182E won’t help much

#70

Just when I wanted to buy it, the shipping price was 18 dollars but now it is 50 dollars arace.tech

#71

I just checked now, shipping is $12

#72

unfortunately the situation is the same. There is no shipping option other than fedex. that’s 50 dollars

#73

!! Delayed till May 10th :frowning:

#74

Just unlocked gpu and vpus except cpus, here is the kernel log: https://paste.armbian.com/uwuyunulat
I haven’t tested yet.
After looking at rockchip’s blocking policy in uboot: https://github.com/radxa/u-boot/blob/next-dev-v2024.03/arch/arm/mach-rockchip/rk3588/rk3588.c#L1221-L1305, we can know that:
1, cpu will block at least 2 big cores. And if there is at least one cpu core broken in on cluster, all cpu cores in this cluster will get disabled. Given that rk3582 is 2xA76+4xA55, there will be 6~8 good cores on rk3582.
2, gpu will get disabled by default, but there are 4 gpu mask. I guess they are for each core of mali g610 mc4. So if you are lucky, you may get g610 mc1 to mc4(I don’t know if they will work well)
3, vpu decoding is for 4K H264/HEVC/VP9, and it has two cores. These two cores are disabled by default even there are good cores. We can enable the good one.
4, vpu encoding also has two cores, and it will disable at least one core. And from the soc spec we have at least one core for encoding. So if you are lucky, you will have full two encoding cores.

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#75

The ROCK 5C is the product that have shown, that the Video output of the RK3588 work also without GPU enabled.
I am not a fan of the RK3588 because its GPU have moved from the Panfrost based GPUs that can run on fully free software to the G610 Panthor based GPUs that are based on closed source firmware.
Now the question the RK3582 opens: Does the graphics output on the ROCK 5C need this closed binary blob? Does the ROCK 5C get the ability to run with 100% free software thanks to disabled GPU?
Can i disable the GPU on all RK358x devices in uboot to get a SoC that does not always ask me for closed source software at every boot and get the same result like on the ROCK 5C?

#76

Now the question the RK3582 opens: Does the graphics output on the ROCK 5C need this closed binary blob?

No. VOP hardware doesn’t rely on firmware.

Does the ROCK 5C get the ability to run with 100% free software thanks to disabled GPU?

Yes. But you don’t want to run heavy Linux desktop apps like Chromium on it. Otherwise the CPU emulated GPU - llvmpipe will make it run slowly and hot, not even as well as previous generations.

One of the few use cases of 5C Lite is the headless use case using SSH, and video decoding and playback via VOP without using the GPU, but only a few applications support this well.

Can i disable the GPU on all RK358x devices in uboot to get a SoC that does not always ask me for closed source software at every boot and get the same result like on the ROCK 5C?

You can delete the GPU node in the device tree to get the same effect as 5C Lite. Even if you don’t remove it, the kernel will just complain that the firmware is not found and fall back to software rendering.

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#77

The software rendering is not VESA based any more like it was many years ago without a GPU? Its different on modern SoC’s like the RK3588?
Does the Panthor driver in such a situation get even used or is the Panthor GPU driver module only loaded when the G610 GPU have been found?

#78

The software rendering is not VESA based any more like it was many years ago without a GPU? Its different on modern SoC’s like the RK3588?

Software rendering is, as always, based on llvmpipe of Mesa, driven by the LLVM backend. All this makes no difference.

Does the Panthor driver in such a situation get even used or is the Panthor GPU driver module only loaded when the G610 GPU have been found?

The latter one. Panthor kernel driver (KMD) will only load normally when the CSF firmware is found. Mesa talks with Panthor KMD and checks its availability, then decides to enable Panfrost GL/EGL/GBM hardware acceleration or fall back to software rendering.

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#79

Thanks! So in case of using only fully free software instead of binary blobs (with exception of CPU microcode) this is the practical summary for a modern sub-10nm desktop computing experience:

  1. Use RK358x based hardware with the rockchip VOP2 driver.
  2. Wait for release of the Rockchip 8nm RK3576 SoC that is based again on the Panfrost capable G52 GPU.
  3. Wait some unknown amount of time until finally modern RISC-V computing hardware is been released with a fully free usable GPU

Until then for fastest desktop usage with practical usable end user hardware:
x86_64: Use your Core2Duo/Core2Quad with Libreboot and known and unfixed security issues in the Intel Microcode for this CPU series
aarch64: Use Amlogic S922X/A311D based hardware like the Odroid N2+ or Khadas VIM3

#80

RK3576 should be the last modern SoC that can meet your needs. Even the Imagination GPU used on the RISC-V JH7110 still uses firmware, and even its decoders and encoders use firmware.

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